Mastering Habit Change: Dr. Gina Cleo on Dopamine, Neuroplasticity, and Reducing Alcohol Dependency

Dr. Gina Cleo, one of Australia's leading habit change experts, shares her expertise on creating healthier, alcohol-free habit loops. In this recording of Dr Cleo's talk to my (Bella) November Alcohol Freedom Challenge, Dr Cleo discusses the science behind dopamine, a neurotransmitter that drives our reward and pleasure systems. On this note, alcohol provides a significant dopamine surge—sometimes up to 360% above baseline—creating a powerful association with relief and pleasure. However, over time, relying on alcohol for dopamine can make other activities feel less rewarding, making it harder to break the habit. 

Dr. Cleo emphasises the importance of hacking our reward system by changing our perception of alcohol and introducing new sources of joy. Reframing alcohol as a toxin that disrupts sleep and drains energy can reduce its appeal. At the same time, engaging in healthier activities—cooking a new recipe, trying a hobby, or exercising—can naturally boost dopamine. Novel experiences, even small ones, provide excitement and unpredictability, rewiring your brain to find joy beyond alcohol. 

As Dr. Cleo explains, building new habits takes time, with the brain’s dopamine levels typically rebalancing within 30 to 90 days. Celebrate each step forward, as acknowledging your progress releases dopamine and reinforces positive behaviours. Listen to Dr. Cleo's practical strategies to rewire your brain, broaden your sources of joy, and thrive without alcohol. 🎧

LEARN MORE ABOUT DR CLEO

Dr Cleo's website: https://www.drginacleo.com/
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MEG

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BELLA

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Chapters

• 0:02 Mastering the Science of Habit Change
• 14:43 Understanding Dopamine and Habit Formation
• 24:14 Managing Dopamine and Habit Change
• 35:00 Empowering Change Through Neuroplasticity

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to today's episode, bella, here with you today, I'm so excited to introduce our guest, dr Gina Cleo, one of Australia's leading experts on habit change. Dr Cleo specializes in the science of habits, why they form, how they shape our daily lives and, most importantly, how we can change them for the better. In this episode, dr Cleo talks to members of my November Alcohol Freedom Challenge, so stay tuned to the end for the informative Q&A session. In this episode, dr Cleo breaks down the myth that habits take 21 days to form, explains the powerful role of dopamine in our behavior and shares practical strategies for creating healthy routines. Whether it's drinking less, exercising more or simply living with greater intention, dr Cleo's insights will help you understand and harness the science of habits to make lasting change.

Speaker 1: 0:58

This was exactly what my challenge members needed to hear at week three of their challenge, when motivation dips a little. I hope you enjoy it too. Let's dive in. A huge welcome to Dr Gina Cleo, who is here to talk to us all about habit change. Dr Gina Cleo, as a PhD in habit change, is a dietician and is the author of the bestselling book the Habit Revolution. A huge welcome, dr Cleo. You are joining our six-week challenge in week three, which is a notoriously difficult week in the habit change process. We are so thrilled you are here in the habit change process.

Speaker 2: 1:46

We are so thrilled you are here. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here and to be able to see all your faces. So thank you for having me. We're thrilled. Yeah, awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:54

I mean, it's really interesting that I come in on week three because I know that a lot of people have been told that it takes 21 days to change a habit and that is fundamentally not true. There is absolutely no scientific evidence to show that it takes 21 days. I think if it only took that long, I would be out of a job and none of us would be here, because we'd be able to tackle any habit really in a three-week period. It takes anywhere between sort of two weeks to up to seven months to change a habit and that's going to depend on the complexity of the habit. So really small sort of simple habits like, say, hand washing, will probably take two weeks for it to become automatic. More complex behaviors, things like push-ups, going to the gym you know, changing an ingrained habit that can take a little bit longer. So the complexity of the habit is really going to determine how long it takes when we start off making any sort of change. You know, we're often, we often have all this motivation and we're like really keen and we have all this energy and we're excited about it. And then by about this time, you know, week three, that motivation tends to wane and we start to fall off the wagon a little bit, and that is completely normal. And actually it's in these moments where the magic happens. It's it's knowing that setbacks are inevitable. It's not if we, you know, fall off the wagon, it's when. And having loads of self-compassion for that, that's really what separates the people who succeed and the people who fall off the wagon entirely. It's being able to just pick yourself back up again and go. I know this is normal, we all have setbacks and it's okay, I can just keep going rather than I've fallen off the wagon. I can't do this, I'm a failure. You know that's not what works.

Speaker 2: 3:53

And I love to think of, you know, the real life story of Thomas Edison who took a thousand attempts to create the light bulb and he so famously said I didn't fail a thousand times, I just found a thousand ways. The light bulb won't be invented. Like. It's not going to work like that. And I often think like, oh, my goodness, I'm a very persistent, determined person. However, if I can't achieve something after like five 10 attempts, I'm like that's not going to work. Something after like five, ten attempts, I'm like, oh, that's not going to work, like I have to find something else. But this man persisted a thousand times. He had this can-do attitude. He's like I absolutely know I can and will create this light bulb. And it happened. And I love the mindset and the grit and tenacity behind that, because it often takes many, many attempts for us to achieve the thing that we're wanting to achieve.

Speaker 2: 4:51

So I thought tonight we can talk about a few things, including, like how to create healthier habits by breaking free from relying on that evening drink, the fascinating role that dopamine plays in this whole process, and maybe explore why novel experiences can really supercharge our motivation, and to help us find joy beyond alcohol. So I want to start with well, what is a habit? So let me share my screen. And you know, a habit is simply a routine behavior that is repeated regularly and performed subconsciously. It's something that your like subconscious mind knows how to do much better than your conscious mind, so it's something that just happens automatically. You don't have to think too much about it. And here's really the science behind habits. Habits follow a simple but powerful loop, and it's the cue, routine and reward. These three ingredients make up really the guts, the ingredients of what a habit is made of, and once you know this, you can reshape the habits in your life. So let me break it down.

Speaker 2: 6:05

A cue is the trigger that starts the habit, and it can be the time of day or a specific location, or what you've just done beforehand. It can also be an emotion or the people that you're around. So those are the five habit triggers. So it's the time of day, a specific location, what you've just done beforehand, how you're feeling and the people that you're around. The routine that's the habit that you perform in response to the cue. So it could be brushing your teeth, checking your phone, grabbing a morning coffee, and then the reward. That's what you get from the routine, whether it's the feeling of cleanliness from brushing your teeth or the dopamine hit, what you get from the routine, whether it's the feeling of cleanliness from brushing your teeth or the dopamine hit that you get from checking your phone or the taste of coffee. So let me give you an example of how habits are created. Let's say you get home, and the first thing you do when you get home is you get a glass of wine, and that helps you to unwind, and so your brain then goes well. I was feeling a little bit stressed, and then I had a glass of wine, and that helps you to unwind, and so your brain then goes well, I was feeling a little bit stressed and then I had a glass of wine and that helped me to unwind, so that felt really good. So then getting home becomes the trigger, the routine becomes having a glass of wine, and the reward that drives this habit loop is that feeling of being less stressed, of relaxing, of caring a little bit less. Essentially, eventually, just thinking of getting home automatically prompts the responding behavior and trying to do anything else becomes really difficult because your brain's already triggered the habit loop. Getting home means drinking wine, and our habits make up to 70% of everything we do every day. Our habits are subconscious and so oftentimes we get home and we're, you know, having a glass of wine and we're not even realizing what we're doing because it happens so automatically. And when you think of the automaticity of habits, it's things like putting your seatbelt on in the car, brushing your teeth as part of your morning routine, tying your shoelaces. You don't have to think about these things. They happen subconsciously and that is the nature of our habits. And so oftentimes coming home grabbing a glass of wine, then that becomes mostly subconscious and it's why I like to describe habits as the invisible blueprint of our everyday life. There's so many things we do and we just do it because it's the habits and it's easier, like parking in the same spot every day or having the same breakfast every day, or you know, if you wake up and the first thing you do is check your phone, then waking up is going to be the trigger which prompts you to check your phone and these become habits. And once that initial cue is fired, it triggers the responding action and it's this automatic process that happens in our brain.

Speaker 2: 9:03

Now, when we're trying to change our habits, here's often where we go wrong. We focus so much on the behavior that we want to change and we ignore the trigger. We get home and we think I'm not going to drink today, I'm going to be good. Then you get home and before you know it, there's a glass of wine in your hand, and that's why advice like just don't drink it rarely works. Once you encounter the trigger, your brain's already starting firing the necessary neural pathways to take action towards the routine Cue, routine reward. It happens in a split second.

Speaker 2: 9:39

Now, for many people, having a drink at the end of the day is part of their wind down routine. You know. We might associate it with things like relaxing or comfort or even a reward, and this habit can be tied to cues like the time of day, the environment that we're in or even how we're feeling emotionally. Breaking free from this pattern means creating new habits that provide the same sense of relief or reward, but in a healthier way. So how do we do that? I've kind of broken it down into three steps, and step one is to identify your triggers, and those triggers can be external, like finishing work or getting home, or they could be internal, like feeling stressed. Now, journaling for a few days can really help to spot these patterns and what's happening, like to figure out really what is happening right before you reach for that drink. How are you feeling? Where are you? What have you just done beforehand? What time of day is it? Who are you around? That can really help to identify what your triggers are.

Speaker 2: 10:51

Sometimes we think it's about relaxing, when it could actually just be because we've sat in a particular part on the couch and we always grab a glass of wine when we're sitting on this particular part of the couch, and it might not actually be about relaxing. It could be about the environment that we're in, and that's just what we do when we're here. I remember working with someone once who was actually in their 70s, who'd been sitting on the couch and having a big bowl of ice cream every night while he watched the news. And I said to him why don't you just try to sit on a different part of your couch and watch something other than the news? Like, just break it up a little bit. And he was so surprised like, sitting just in a different part of the couch, he's like there's a different view around here. He was sort of distracted by it. Watching something different engaged him more and that didn't trigger that ice cream habit anymore. So it can be really subtle changes that make a really big difference.

Speaker 2: 11:50

Now step two is replacing that drink with something else. So once you know your triggers, like once you've really sort of journaled it and diarized it and figured out what it is that prompts you to go for that drink, then you can replace the drinking habit with something healthier, like if stress is the trigger, you might try meditation or walking or even a few minutes of deep breathing. If it's boredom that's the trigger, you might read a book, call a friend, you know, pick a hobby. The key is that your new activity should be satisfying enough to fill that void, to fill the gap. Now, dopamine does play a role here and I'm going to touch on that and I know it's so easy, for you know, I've I've been an emotional eater in the past and I used to hate when someone would say to me if you feel like eating, call a friend. I'd be like, but that's not what I want. I, I want the chocolate cake like a friend's. Not going to help in those situations. But once I learned about dopamine and why I was reaching for these sugary treats, it changed everything. So I'm going to go through that with you After we go through tip number three, which is reward yourself.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Habits stick when there's a reward at the end. So think about what's going to make your new habit feel worthwhile. Maybe it's how good you feel physically. Maybe it's that you're going to get a great night's sleep because you've had a more relaxing you know routine in the evening. Maybe you're going to give yourself a non-alcoholic treat that you really enjoy, you know. Celebrate those wins, because remember the three ingredients to a habit the third one is a reward. Our rewards drive our behavior. That's what reinforces our learning. And remember we don't have to quit drinking all at once. You know, start by replacing just one evening drink with a healthier habit. If it's once a week it's still better and then just like up it from there. We get really overwhelmed when we sometimes try to change too much. And actually one of the biggest reasons people don't achieve their goals is because their goals are either too big they've set too many goals or they don't have a supportive environment. So when a goal feels much more realistic so when a goal feels much more realistic, it's less scary we're more likely to attempt it and to achieve it and to sustain it. And you know, over time, as you feel better and more in control, it becomes easier to stick with the changes, to do it more frequently. So now that we've sort of laid the groundwork for creating healthy habits, I really want to explore the science behind why alcohol feels so rewarding and how we can shift that in our favor.

Speaker 2: 14:43

Let's talk about dopamine. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter which is a chemical in your brain and it plays a really important role in motivation and reward and pleasure and it's involved in our drive to seek out rewards and to anticipate pleasure. So when you drink alcohol your brain gets a rush of dopamine which makes you feel good temporarily, and over time this trains your brain to associate alcohol with pleasure, and of course, we love to avoid pain and seek pleasure. That is what we are driven to do as human beings all the time. Now this process reinforces behaviors. When dopamine is released after a rewarding experience, we're more likely to repeat the action, and this is called reinforcement learning, and it's the reason why we form habits. So dopamine isn't just a one-time thing. It actually drives us to repeat behaviors that give us that rewarding feeling. Now the amount of dopamine released when we drink alcohol varies depending on a whole bunch of things, but mostly genetics, and some studies show that drinking alcohol can increase our dopamine levels in the brain reward system anywhere between sort of 40 to 360 percent or 360 times above the baseline level. For reference, some other things that increase your dopamine levels include chocolate by 150%, exercise 200%, nicotine or cocaine is 250%, cold showers or ice baths also 250%, and then we've got things like methamphetamine 1000%. So alcohol sits at 40 to 360%, and I guess the research is showing that some people are more predisposed to feeling addicted to alcohol, or really drawn to alcohol, based on how much reward they feel from it, drawn to alcohol, based on how much reward they feel from it.

Speaker 2: 16:57

The really cool way we can try to hack this reward system is actually in our perception of the reward. If I was to say to you all right, everybody, I'm going to come around to your house in a Mr Whippy van and everybody is getting ice cream tonight, everyone's getting choc choc tops, that's exciting. Like we get a reward from that. And it's mostly because who doesn't love Mr Whippy? Like there's the song, there's the choc tops, it's nostalgic. But if I was to say I'm going to come around with some spinach soup, it's nowhere near as exciting. Like you don't get that anticipation. Like, yes, gina's coming with spinach soup, it's like oh yeah, that doesn't sound that appealing. And so our perception of how rewarding something is impacts significantly how rewarding that thing actually is.

Speaker 2: 17:49

And there's a little part of my book it's sort of an excerpt in this chapter about rewards and the little excerpt, I think the title of it, is Pasta is Worms, chocolate is Mud. And there was sort of another thing and it was actually an analogy that this guy gave me one time when I was eating a bowl of homemade pasta actually, and he goes oh, are you enjoying that bowl of worms? And I was like bowl of homemade pasta actually. And he was, oh, are you enjoying that bowl of worms? And I was like what, this guy's crazy? And he said to me that he had lost like 40 kilograms just by changing his perception about the foods that he felt really addicted to. He's like I was big pasta lover and I was like pasta's worms, and then I was like, oh, I don't want worms, and then stopped feeling as drawn to it anymore, hence why chocolate's like mud and there was something else.

Speaker 2: 18:38

Oh, cheese is mucus or something like that. And, and you know, you guys are scrunching up your faces. And that's exactly it. Like if I again came around with some cheese and crackers, we would all be down for that, I'm assuming. But if I was to say here's a platter of mucus, it's not as appealing. And so if we start to look at alcohol and break down what it really is, you know it's a toxin.

Speaker 2: 19:05

It impacts your sleep significantly and if we don't get that good REM sleep that alcohol damages, we don't consolidate memories, we don't feel refreshed, we're less likely to exercise the next day, we can't concentrate anywhere near as good, we're going to crave sugar and carbohydrates so much more and metabolisms impacted. Like I could go on all day about the impact of poor sleep. And a big contributor to that is alcohol. It's actually one of the biggest. It's the main reason why I drink significantly less now. Like I'm one of those people I will only drink at a really special occasion, and it better be super special, and I'll tend to just keep, you know, one or two glasses of wine that I'll drink, and it'll be earlier in the day or earlier in the evening, and that's it, because I value sleep more than anything, more than because it is the bedrock of health and wellbeing.

Speaker 2: 20:07

Now, the more you rely on alcohol for dopamine, the harder it becomes for your brain to feel pleasure from other things, and this is why it can feel like life is sort of less exciting or less enjoyable when you try to cut back on drinking in those initial stages. So you guys are three weeks in amazing keep going. This is the period where it probably starts to feel extra dull because you're like, well, it'd be so nice just to have a drink and you know to feel that dopamine hit, it would be lovely. But keep on keeping on. Trust me, it gets easier. The less you do something, the less habitual that it gets, until eventually your brain's like I don't even want to do that because I'm feeling rewarded by how good I'm feeling, how good I'm sleeping, by achieving something, and all of these things become a greater reward than the dopamine that you used to get from the alcohol. And you know, I think being aware of this and our dopamine system is so powerful because we can better understand what's happening in our body and our brain and why it can feel so hard to say no to a drink, especially when we're tired or stressed or we want to feel a bit of pleasure and our resilience is a little bit lower, and it's similar feeling about not scrolling too much on your phone or not going for that second helping of dessert or staying in bed when you promised yourself you'd go out to exercise. We're just seeking pleasure, essentially. So I would really encourage you to write a list of other things that give you pleasure, like exercise, achieving something, doing something new or novel, spending time with loved ones, you know, doing creative activities, being in nature, and then do more of those things. Build excitement for the healthy activities by planning them ahead of time, like I will like look forward to a new recipe that I'm really looking forward to trying instead of, you know, the usual drink.

Speaker 2: 22:13

So every time you resist an old habit or succeed in forming a new one, your brain gets a hit of dopamine. So acknowledge these moments. Even saying to yourself I'm really proud of myself can really reinforce that behavior. Sometimes my phone will like ding, and I won't look at it as sort of a delayed gratification type thing that I practice with myself, like a self-binding thing, and in that moment the most important thing that I've done isn't that I've resisted checking my phone, it's that I've taken a moment to go. I'm really proud of you for having that self-control like well done, and it's actually in that reward that my brain goes well. That felt really good to have that acknowledgement and to have that little reward. We're going to do that again, and so those are the moments that are really important to celebrate your wins.

Speaker 2: 23:06

Now the last thing I want to touch on is one of the most effective ways to reduce your reliance on alcohol is to broaden your sources of joy and fulfillment, and this is where novelty comes in. When you try something new, your brain releases dopamine in response to the excitement and the unpredictability of the experience, and this makes novelty a natural dopamine booster and a great way to stay motivated. So even small changes, like taking a different route to work or trying a new cuisine, can really bring that sense of excitement to your day, and by giving your brain fresh sources of pleasure and reward, you can reduce the emotional pull of alcohol, can reduce the emotional pull of alcohol, and over time, these new experiences can become the foundation of a happier, healthier lifestyle. So I just want to finish by saying that it's all about small, consistent steps that lead to those big changes over time. Be patient and kind to yourself and remember to celebrate every win along the way.

Speaker 2: 24:14

Now I would love to share with you guys. I know that Bella said I can share a gift or something with you. Yeah. Yeah, is it my free habit masterclass? So if you want to learn a bit more about why we have habits, how to break old habits like step by step, if you want a free habit, you can just there's a QR code there. Otherwise, I'm sure we can share a link. It's on my website as well.

Speaker 1: 24:39

Thank you. I can see people grabbing a little QR code and I'll make sure all of this goes out to everybody as well. Dr Cleo, thank you so much. I really appreciated your comments around novelties, novelty dopamine sources. I tried very recently ecstatic dancing. How was it? If you know me, the most terrifying thing that I could ever put myself through. And it was terrifying because there's no phones on the dance floor, no talking, so you can't distract. You have to be fully present, wow, wow. But the joy and the thrill afterwards is incredible. So you know, I can fully relate to that concept of, I guess, getting a smorgasbord of other dopamine sources that you can tap into. Yeah, Now I would love to open it up to challenge members here. Do you have any questions for Dr Cleo?

Speaker 5: 25:45

I just had a quick one. Just thank you, dr Cleo, for sharing. That was amazing. Just a quick question about the dopamine does our body create any of its own or is it mainly external sources? That you know, because I obviously it's. We're in the three what? Three week month. I was gonna say three month, but I wish, and I was saying to Bella and everyone before, like we were definitely feeling the lull and the lower energy levels and all of that kind of stuff. So so yeah, how does that work and will our bodies start producing that at some point?

Speaker 2: 26:18

Yeah, I mean, our bodies do produce dopamine. It's a natural neurotransmitter that is in our body and our brain and it's actually our body that releases it in anticipation of something. So if you think of like caveman days, for example, it in anticipation of something. So if you think of like caveman days, for example, we release dopamine when we are seeking out food, so, say, someone's hungry, they'll actually start to release dopamine because we want to seek out, like the hunt or like getting food. So, yes, it's always there and although it feels flatlined at the moment, I promise you it will come back.

Speaker 2: 26:56

Essentially, dopamine is like a seesaw and the more you, I guess, give yourself artificial pleasure and by artificial pleasure I mean things like strolling, alcohol, nicotine, those things that aren't like in nature as such the more we give ourselves those sorts of dopamines, the more we dampen the whole system. So, essentially, your baseline dopamine is going to feel lower and that translates to feeling less motivated, a bit fatigued, maybe a bit grisly. But with time and not sort of hijacking this dopamine system by giving yourself too much dopamine it comes back to that nice, even like level again. Now that takes on average about 30 days, 30, oh, I'm gonna say look up to 90 days, but that's for really strong addictions. Yeah, so you're like one more week, girlfriend, like just keep on keeping on.

Speaker 3: 28:03

Hi, thank you, Dr Cleo. That was just so. I just learned so much and I just wanted to go on from a question about dopamine and producing it Is that I've heard a lot about people going on dopamine diets where they remove everything that creates dopamine, like it sounds like it's really quite extreme. How does that tie into what you were just describing about replacing dopamine, and how do we manage, um, what are the tips for managing that drop when we do cut out that source that we've been subconsciously relying on for so long?

Speaker 2: 28:37

yeah, that's such a good question. I am fervently against doing a dopamine detox. There's actually no research to support it. But also, you will feel so lousy. It is not sustainable and there's nothing wrong with dopamine, you know. I think it's really dangerous to demonize dopamine, because it's actually dopamine that helps us clean the house and cook dinner and fold the laundry.

Speaker 2: 29:07

It's like we need dopamine when it becomes dangerous is when we're dopamine seeking, when we're like I feel crappy and so I'm going to get a hit of sugar or some alcohol or do a line of cocaine. You know, that's when it becomes dangerous. So some of the more positive ways that we can like in, I guess the your second question was well, what do we do instead of getting dopamine? Beautiful, so there's so many natural ways to get dopamine. It's not going to give you as much as alcohol, but that's the whole point. We don't want to get as much as alcohol, because that's what's hijacking and driving the system and creating the cycle of needing more. So things like morning sunshine, exercise gives us so much dopamine.

Speaker 2: 29:58

Having a cold shower I don't know if anyone's tried like a cold plunge or an ice bath yeah, I see, as a balance. So one of the ways that I do this is I will still have my indulgent warm shower with my Aesop soap you know I still have all the luxury in that and then at the very end I turn it to cold, and I started with just 10 seconds and now I've I do it for about 30 seconds. Some days I go a little bit longer, but that increases your dopamine by about 60% and it's awesome, it lasts for hours. So that's a really nice natural way to do it and that can be done whenever you're at home. You know, I sometimes, when I'm having a bit of a slump, I'll actually just jump in my ice bath and I'm like, okay, I feel alive right now. That's a nice way.

Speaker 2: 30:44

The other way is doing something creative. That's a nice way. The other way is doing something creative, so picking up some sort of hobby, um, achieving something. So when you do achieve something, if you tick it off like on a habit tracker, that gives you a nice hit of dopamine, laughter. You can watch funny video. Lots of those sort of natural things.

Speaker 3: 31:04

You help, yeah so what I'm getting from that is that we're wanting to pull back from that dopamine surge and then just slowly build up multiple sources, probably to replace that.

Speaker 2: 31:17

Natural sources yeah. We will never get too much from nature. It's designed to be balanced, but we do get too much from those artificial sources. Thank you, that's really helpful.

Speaker 1: 31:31

Thank you, of course any other questions that you would like to ask dr cleo?

Speaker 4: 31:41

hi, bella, can you hear me? Hi there, dr cleo Cleo, thank you. My question is on habit transfer. So you give up your alcohol and that's all great, you're doing really well. But then for me, I've found I'm now drinking a lot more coffee than I used to and it's sort of like seeking that little hit. Instead of in the evening, I look for it in the morning and I really wake up looking forward to it and yeah just kind of wondering a little bit about habit transfer.

Speaker 2: 32:14

Yeah, and that's really common. We often replace an unwanted habit with another unwanted habit. And also very common to go from alcohol to coffee, because coffee also gives us a dopamine hit. So it makes complete sense why you know you would do that, and I think it's one of those questions of you know is it causing harm? Is it something you don't want to do or are you okay with it? Like, is it all right? If you feel like you're having too much coffee or it's not something that you want to continue doing, then I would then go through the similar process of trying to change the coffee habit. So, whether it's having a decaf instead or having a tea or you know, changing our environment can be a really powerful way to change our habits. So getting busy, like when you know that you're going to be seeking the coffee it's like right at this time. This is what I'm going to be doing, this is where I'm going to be, and just find something else entirely different to do can can be helpful thank you, we've got um.

Speaker 1: 33:17

Ah, here we go there.

Speaker 6: 33:18

One more question fire away okay, not so much a question, really. I just wanted to acknowledge everything that you've said is fantastic. It's really helped me. I've written quite a few notes down because I'm a person that gets up at 5.30 in the morning and does my exercise, and if I don't get my exercise in in the morning I'm not good for the day.

Speaker 6: 33:42

But I do find that I do have this habit of a glass of wine while I'm preparing dinner a glass of wine while I'm eating dinner, a glass of wine after I've had dinner, and this is something that I do every single night. And I'm really starting to think now about let's just do it a little bit differently. And obviously I'm not drinking at the moment, but I made dinner tonight before coming on here, which I haven't eaten yet. But I just thought, well, I just will not do that, I'll just prepare dinner. I won't have, you know, I will think about having a glass. Obviously I won't even have my little alcohol-free cocktail. I just won't do it and I'll concentrate on the cooking. And I did so. It's just about, I suppose. Yeah, I mean, it was fantastic what you were saying about just swap it for something else. That that gives you pleasure and cooking gives me pleasure. Why am I having double pleasure? A wine and cooking. I can just, I can just have it with the cooking really.

Speaker 4: 34:46

So thank you.

Speaker 6: 34:48

I've written some good tips on that.

Speaker 2: 34:51

That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. And you know, the less you do the wine, the less it'll be a thing until eventually your brain's like no, I don't do that. And if you think of any belief system you've ever changed or any habit you've ever changed, that is neuroplasticity in action. That is, you proving to yourself that you can change your brain. And I know that when we have unwanted habits, it feels like they're taking over our lives and that this is just how we are and it's really hard slash, impossible to change. But you know, you're living proof that that's not the case at all and we all have the power to change our brain and to rewire it.

Speaker 6: 35:29

So well done that's great, thank you, thank you thank you.

Speaker 1: 35:33

Just having a giggle because I remembered when I stopped drinking I suddenly stopped finding any joy in cooking whatsoever and I think they were just so paired and so connected and I realized I'm actually not so keen on it. So I had to kind of make it exciting again by mixing it up.

Speaker 6: 35:51

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:55

Thank you so much for just talking to our group about habit loops and routines and all the rest of it, because alcohol is absolutely everywhere and it is so connected with you. We've probably all got I don't know at least 10, 100 habit loops that are all associated with alcohol, whether it's driving past the bottle shop or getting that, you know, cooking trigger or an emotional trigger. So there are so many habits there and loops there to kind of change.

Speaker 2: 36:31

So Heaps of associations, absolutely, and awareness of those is really powerful and, just you know, knowing that my body's, my brain and my body are seeking something. And it's not the alcohol, it's something around that, it's the moment of pleasure or joy or, you know, the lack of stress. So it's not actually this, this is just a vice. And how can I seek it in a, in a healthier, more honoring way for my body?

Speaker 1: 37:01

yeah, thank you once again from all of us here. Thank you such a pleasure.

Speaker 2: 37:07

Thanks for having me and good luck for the rest of your challenge. You guys are rocking it thank you see you bye.