The Not Drinking Alcohol Today Podcast
Meg and Bella discuss the ups and downs of navigating an alcohol free life in Australia's alcohol centric culture. This highly rated podcast, featuring in Australia's top 100 self improvement podcasts, is a must for those that are trying to drink less alcohol but need some motivation, are curious about sober life or who are sober but are looking for some extra reinforcement. The Not Drinking Alcohol Today pod provides an invaluable resource to keep you motivated and on track today and beyond. Meg and Bella's guests include neuroscientists, quit-lit authors, journalists, health experts, alcohol coaches and everyday people who have struggled with alcohol but have triumphed over it. Our aim is to support and inspire you to reach your goals to drink less or none at all! Meg and Bella are This Naked Mind Certified Coaches (plus nutritionists and counsellors respectively) who live in Sydney and love their alcohol free life.
The Not Drinking Alcohol Today Podcast
Danielle Fleming: Navigating pregnancy and alcohol.
What experiences led Danielle Fleming, a former heavy drinker in the hospitality industry, to transform her life and become a pregnancy sobriety coach? Discover Danielle's powerful story of resilience and change as she opens up about the grip alcohol had on her and the life-altering moment of realizing she was pregnant in January 2020. Hear how she navigated the tough road to sobriety for her baby's health and found solace and guidance in Annie Grace's methodology, which helped her reshape her view on alcohol.
In this heartfelt episode, you'll hear about the emotional rollercoaster of an unexpected pregnancy, the guilt associated with early alcohol consumption, and the profound impact of Danielle losing her mother just as she was about to share her joyous news. We'll delve into the struggle of breaking free from the habit of drinking, especially when it carried sentimental value, and how Danielle turned to alcohol-free alternatives as a healthier choice for both her unborn child and herself.
Motherhood brings an opportunity to reassess our relationships with alcohol, a theme that we explore with depth and compassion. Danielle and I discuss generational alcoholism, the transformation of motherhood, and the importance of being fully present for our children. Danielle also shares insights about her company, Rooted Ruby Wellness, and encourages listeners to connect and share their stories. This episode is a testament to the strength of the human spirit, the importance of self-discovery, and the benefits of choosing a healthier, alcohol-free life.
You can find Danielle here:
https://www.rootedruby.com/
https://www.instagram.com/rootedrubywellness
Email: Danielle@rootedruby.com
Danielle's first ep on NDT podcast:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2061067/12466595
MEG
Megan Webb: https://glassfulfilled.com.au
Instagram: @glassfulfilled
Unwined Bookclub: https://www.alcoholfreedom.com.au/unwinedbookclub
Facebook UpsideAF: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1168716054214678
Small group coaching: https://www.elizaparkinson.com/groupcoaching
BELLA
Web: https://isabellaferguson.com.au
Insta: @alcoholandstresswithisabella
Bi-Yearly 6-Week Small Group Challenges: Learn more: https://www.isabellaferguson.com.au/feb-2025-challenge
Free Do I Have A Drinking Problem 3 x Video Series: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/offers/JTFFgjJL/checkout
Free HOW DO I STOP DRINKING SO MUCH Masterclass: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/offers/7fvkb3FF/checkout
Online Alcohol Self-...
On today's episode I have the lovely Danielle Fleming who I have had on before. You can go back through the episodes and find her original episode, but today I've got Danielle on to talk about pregnancy. Danielle's a pregnancy sobriety coach. Welcome, danielle.
Speaker 2:Hi Megan. Oh, so good to be back. How are you? I'm good.
Speaker 1:It's so good to have you back For today. Can you kind of give us a recap, danielle, on how you got to here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would love to. Really I'm excited to talk about how all of this has transitioned into me working with newly pregnant women and really supporting people on that. You know, trying to conceive to pregnancy, to early motherhood journey, and I feel so aligned working with with those women and I am seven, eight, eight months pregnant now myself. So I am just really excited to reconnect with my story and how things unfolded during my first pregnancy and what really brought me into the whole world of freedom from alcohol.
Speaker 1:Yes, sounds amazing, and what better person to be doing this coaching than someone who's pregnant and who has a young child as well? So I really look forward to getting into that. And so, if you can just give us a brief update on, yeah, your drinking journey and how you did manage, yeah, so I mean it was 2020.
Speaker 2:And at this point this was before COVID. So I had worked. So I spent 20 years working in the hospitality industry and was a very heavy drinker. It was part of my career, part of my life. I really became an enthusiast for all things alcohol, so I wanted to know everything there was to know about brewing, beer and making wine, and I worked in wineries and learned about viticulture and different spirits and was infusing spirits. So I was really quite obsessed with all things alcohol and obviously that led me down a road to drinking quite a lot very regularly, and never really, you know, questioned it or thought that I had, um, like a quote, unquote problem, it. It was always my blackouts that really, um, made me question what I was doing and and just made me want to get a better handle on controlling alcohol, because I would go, you know, a long time weeks or or however long drinking normally and and getting along just fine, but then I would have these awful blackouts where I would do something horrible to the people that I loved and that just kept reoccurring in my life and I, you know, was getting to the point, after 15 years of it, that I was just starting to question, like is this even worth it, what am I doing and how do I stop this from happening? I was starting to kind of question everything. I was starting to, you know, really got serious about moderating, setting all the rules, saying I'm gonna, you know, always have water in between each drink, and I stopped drinking certain things on certain occasions and I just started really becoming aware of you know how much I was drinking, how fast I was drinking it, whether or not I was eating properly, and I just really, yeah, I started thinking about it a lot, about my drinking. And when I started thinking about it a lot, because this interesting thing happens that as soon as you decide, oh, I'm going to cut back and control this thing, then all of a sudden, it's all you can think about. And so that started happening.
Speaker 2:And then I, in January of 2020, is when I found out I was pregnant, and it was, you know, a surprise pregnancy. I found out I was pregnant and I it was, um, you know, a surprise pregnancy, very welcome. I was very excited but, at the same time, really caught off guard. And when I found out, I remember sitting at the bathroom sink on the edge of this, on the edge of the um bathtub and looking at the pregnancy test, going oh fuck, like, oh shit, I have to quit drinking, and that was the first thing that came to my mind. That really was the biggest thing that I was scared about was I don't know how to stop drinking. I don't know how to say no to this thing. I had never had to say no to this substance before. I had tried to cut back a little bit, but I had never really said no.
Speaker 2:And so, all of a sudden, I was in a space where, obviously, the health of my baby was very important to me. I knew that I wanted, I knew that I had to quit drinking. I knew that I wanted to. This was really important to me.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, the next three months were really a struggle, trying to figure out how exactly to get over these crazy urges and cravings of wanting to drink and not understanding why I wanted it so badly, considering I knew that I wanted a healthy baby.
Speaker 2:It was a lot harder than I really expected. I did not expect to have such a hard time transitioning, and when that started happening, like when I was in the middle of it, I realized, wow, I think alcohol has a bigger hold over me than I really ever admitted to. So then that opened up this whole floodgate of what do I want to do next. Now that I know this thing has a lot more control over me than I previously knew, how do I want to move forward? That brought me online looking for anything that would help, and and that's when I found Annie Grace's work, and that's when I I really started to question the substance itself, rather than me as a person, and just start to inquire, get curious and decide to really dive into changing my relationship with it and my perspective on it.
Speaker 1:While you're talking, danielle, it's reminding me of my pregnancies. So my first one with my daughter, when I was 24, I was actually in the UK and I was. I didn't again, like you, it was a surprise and I didn't know I was pregnant and I had a lot of guilt afterwards because I'd had what's called a snake bite, which is cider and beer together, and but naturally, after that, my body, I started to feel sick and I didn't really know why, but I couldn't handle alcohol, so I was very grateful after I found out the reason. Uh, I got through that pregnancy very easily. I did keep thinking I was looking forward to a cocktail when I had the baby and then when I had her, I thought, oh, I have to breastfeed, or I. When I had the baby and then when I had her, I thought, oh, I have to breastfeed, or I am breastfeeding, I can't have that cocktail. And that was okay.
Speaker 1:About four months later I had a big night and then it went back to how I'd always been binge drinking occasionally. Then with my second, I just remember once being pregnant, going to an event with my husband for his work, and I had a tantrum. It was a real FOMO moment. I was missing out. I didn't crave alcohol, but I didn't like being in a social situation without it and that's all I can remember about around that pregnancy.
Speaker 1:Regarding alcohol again, I was fine then with my son, 10 years after I'd had my first daughter, I felt that fear of missing out quite a bit and one time I had three glasses of wine at a barbecue and I really really beat myself up over that.
Speaker 1:And after I had him I got back into drinking not straight away, but it really was a different time, because everyone around me was like oh, you got to pump and dump or, you know, have a drink and then you can express so you can have more drinks. It was much more prevalent and maybe it's because of where I was in my life, but I found it harder with him, my third, to stop the drinking afterwards particularly and it's only something I've thought about now. But there was thoughts of alcohol in each pregnancy and I think that's not unusual and, like you said, the first thought was I've got to give up alcohol. I think that's a very common thing for a lot of women, so, but we can carry shame with that and not realize that we're not the only ones. But I was wondering, you know, how did you deal with that? Because you were what a few weeks into your pregnancy, when you found out, what did you do with the drinking?
Speaker 2:Yeah, mean I can totally relate to um just the idea, like I mean, from an outsider's perspective. Obviously I have my own perspective of it. Um, but seeing how many women you know, many women find it very easy to quit during pregnancy and and it's just a no brainer, and I've had um lots of friends and and acquaintances and people that I've talked to about it um say that you know, usually Some people don't find it very difficult at all, but really I am kind of, you know, reaching out to those people who it's not that easy for, because that was my situation, where I never imagined it being so difficult and the guilt and the shame that comes with wanting this drink and not understanding why you want it, because you know that you want to have a healthy pregnancy, like you want it to just be small and irrelevant and not exist and not to think about it. But the reality is that we do, we think about it a lot and obviously some people more than others. And so, to really answer your question, when I you know, I was probably, I think, 10 or 12 weeks at the point that I had found out, weeks at the point that I had found out and I had had some signs of, of early pregnancy and I just wanted to ignore them because I wasn't ready to admit oh no, I am pregnant. And so I think there was a bit of of shame around the whole idea of being pregnant in the first place.
Speaker 2:And then, you know very quickly, once I took the test and it became, you know, very real, then I I had to figure out how the heck I was going to just quit cold turkey. And I remember, actually, you know, when I sat there on that side of the bathtub and I was looking at that test, looking at myself in the mirror, thinking what have I done? My first reaction was to go and get my last bottle of wine. And I went to the liquor store and I got, you know, a Sauvignon Blanc, because I figured white wine was better than red. And I made up the excuse that I would, you know, extend it over a couple of days so that would be less impactful for the fetus. And, like you, just make up these reasons to to make yourself feel better or make it okay, and then carry the guilt of oh no, what did I do? Why did I do that? Why is this thing important to me? Like, why can't I control myself, like you know, beating yourself up saying I know better, I should have done better, I should have tried harder. And the reality is that it's just, it's sometimes not that easy.
Speaker 2:You know, when I was in early pregnancy I I did a lot of things to try and get my mind off of drinking. But I remember at the very beginning, I would actually pull the liquor bottle out of the cupboard and I would smell. I was a whiskey drinker and I would smell it and I would let my mouth salivate and then I would, you know, instead of pouring it and drinking it, I would just put it back in the cupboard and just that ritual was enough to like curb the desire somehow. And then in March I was actually going home to tell my family that I was pregnant and I was so excited and they had just kind of started talking about COVID and they had announced, like you know, maybe don't travel. And we were getting really close to lockdowns and I remember being fearful that I wouldn't get across the country, that I wouldn't.
Speaker 2:I like I live in Canada, I was in Western Canada at the time, my family's all in Ontario, and I was really scared that I would not be able to get home. And so I left and drove and made my way across the country, 2730 hours or something, and the day before I was going to tell my mom that I was pregnant and that she was going to be a grandma, she died. Oh, danielle. And when I got that phone call, I remember laying on the floor and just screaming like sobbing, crying no, I have something to tell you and you're going to be so happy. And so that was like a hugely devastating moment, because at this point I was, you know, 32 years old, her oldest daughter, her only daughter, and I was just so excited to share that with her and that I wanted to do it in person. And then I never got the chance.
Speaker 1:I cannot imagine. I am so very sorry.
Speaker 2:I didn't really want to throw myself into drinking, but I remember really struggling with not with the idea of not being able to have a drink. And she was my best drinking buddy, like she was my. That's what we did together. And so even when my brothers came into town and we were celebrating her life, you know I did.
Speaker 2:I remember I had a Coors Light can, which is like a light beer, and I I remembered, like doing the math of, okay, well, it's only 5%, and if I drink it over an hour and a half, a beer an hour, and so maybe that means that it won't even reach my baby, Like I was just doing all this crazy stuff to try and make myself feel okay about it.
Speaker 2:And that's when I really started leaning into alcohol-free beer, alcohol-free drinks, and I started exploring because I, I remember having that one beer and feeling so, because now I'm, you know, three months, four months, and it it just it made the guilt even worse, it made the the shame that I felt that I was doing something so wrong, that much worse. And so I really decided at that time, you know, I'm going to do something differently. I have to do something differently, I have to choose differently for for this child, and that's when I started exploring alcohol-free options and and now that's one of one of my biggest tools that I I you know advocate for because of my work in hospitality, I really try to emphasize to restaurants and bars and different places, social venues that the importance of carrying these alcohol-free options that still give people the same social feeling when they're out.
Speaker 1:Well, first of all, I'm so sorry. What you went through, that is just I. I I can't imagine. I can't imagine. That is just so painful. And and then to add on top of that the battle in your head around doing what's best for your baby I know you are not going to be alone in that. I think you're going to be helping a lot of people in this space and I'm just very grateful that you are doing this and you are currently pregnant and you have a little one, so you really really know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I found I was actually searching online for anything that would tell me that it was actually okay to drink while I was pregnant. I was looking for, I was. You know. I thought, well, in other countries I'm sure that they recommend a glass of wine, like France has got a drink while they're pregnant, yeah, and so I was looking online for anything that would tell me that it was okay. And then you just keep finding, you know, more and more evidence to prove to yourself that this is not okay and that we know all the things that we already know. They've been, um, you know, we've been educated on the dangers of fetal alcohol syndrome and just how we don't really have a clear understanding that any alcohol impacts your baby, especially at the different levels of development.
Speaker 2:So when I couldn't find anything that would tell me it was okay to drink, then I thought, oh, I must be an alcoholic. What am I going to do? And I searched am I an alcoholic? And that's how I found Annie, annie Grace's work and this Naked Mind. And I got on their email list list and just the emails that the headings of the emails were enough to keep me in that mindset, like that's the first time that I had ever heard anybody say you can have control over alcohol, that you can make it small and irrelevant, and that became.
Speaker 2:My goal was really that I wanted to have total, complete control. So even when I was pregnant, I never decided that I was never going to drink again. My decision at the time was I was never going to be drunk again, and that was my version of moderating. Was like one or two drinks is fine. Of moderating was like one or two drinks is fine. After that I knew it would get out of control because I didn't have an off switch. I never had one and so I could always handle like I could always control it for the, and so I would get into doing shots with my beer and shots with everything, and that always ended the same.
Speaker 1:I totally hear you, yeah right, I will never be drunk again. I so, through that, I will stop myself before I do the stupid things. I mean famous last words, because we know that once you've had those couple of few drinks, your brain doesn't make those good decisions anymore. But I very much relate to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I didn't know enough about the science at that point to really understand that that's how it works. So it was really interesting to then dive deeper and deeper into the this Make In Mind methodology and just changing my, starting to change my perspective on whether or not this substance was even necessary in my life. And then, once I started really diving deep into the science, it just changed everything for me. I was like wow and I actually, you know, I felt guilty for the way that I had sold it and pushed it for so many years like 20 years in the hospitality industry, pushing this toxic substance, and I was like the marketing gal. So I was figuring out ways to sell more and get in, training employees to upsell and looking for all different ways to just get as much alcohol safely into my guests as possible. And then, once I had this realization that's why I was like oh no, now I have to advocate the opposite Like I just feel such a strong pull to really advocate for restaurants to be carrying alcohol free alternatives and just be educating their staff and their clientele on, you know, these different options that we have available now because this is such an exciting time.
Speaker 2:We have, you know, the alcohol-free adult beverage segment is one of the fastest growing markets that there is in food and beverage. So it's just really exciting to see, you know, all of these big companies come out with such great alternatives, and I think it's really going to change the game on how we drink socially.
Speaker 1:For sure I love that, and I just had someone on last week who owns a alcohol-free gin distillery in Sydney and she worked in the alcohol industry with her husband and it was when they had kids that they had this shift of oh, we've been pushing this poison on people. We want to change that and the exciting thing is that their brand is now in a lot of top restaurants in Sydney and beyond Sydney as well. But there's definitely a shift which is fantastic. You know, just so nice to be able to go and have really grown-up options of lovely drinks and fit into that social scene. But when you were talking, I was thinking about it do you get any clients and maybe you don't. That focuses on no amount of alcohol is safe in pregnancy and I feel like that can bring a lot of shame and guilt for the women before that who were told it is safe to have one drink or whatever it was. I can't remember what the guidelines were. Have you come across women that have guilt from the past?
Speaker 2:No, actually I haven't, but I can imagine the impact that that would have on the way that they feel about their journey into motherhood and also about consecutive pregnancies. I know, for example, my mom was with me, didn't smoke, didn't drink With my next brother she didn't smoke. And then with the third, she kind of you know, she didn't drink a lot and she didn't smoke a lot, but she definitely did both the first time. I feel like you're, you're everything is new and you try your best to just do everything right. You're everything is new and you try your best to just do everything right Quote, unquote right. And then, as time goes on, you know you had two healthy children. So then you're on your third pregnancy and you're like, oh well, one drink didn't hurt last time. So then you end up having a couple of drinks and oh I, you know what's one cigarette going to do. Oh, I, you know what's one cigarette going to do or what's you know. It just gets easier to make those decisions.
Speaker 2:And I think it's interesting to bring up the point of you know that guilt for the women who were told that maybe it was OK to have a drink during pregnancy and now they're being told absolutely no amount of alcohol is safe, and and just the impact that that would have on them mentally and emotionally. Because you know you, you really care as a mother, you care about what you put in your body. You stop eating all these foods that you love, like you know, delicious soft cheese and, um, you know there's all kinds of examples of uh limitations that we put on ourselves when we're pregnant for the health and benefit of our baby, and we really trust our medical professional to be giving us the right information. And so when that information changes, I could see how the guilt would really impact. You know just how they felt as a mom coming into their motherhood journey, of whether or not they did the right thing and, oh, did I cause this or could I have done better? And you know, I just really believe that we're all just doing the best that we can with the tools that we have.
Speaker 2:I think that every baby that's born into this world, you know, has their own particular journey that they're meant to be on, and so we just do the best that we can and continue to learn and grow. And if that means that, you know, we had a drink or two, or the odd glass of wine with a previous pregnancy and now we realize, oh wow, we're learning. You know, this is a toxic substance and the impact that it has on the brain and the gray matter and all of these different things Like. The one thing that I have to really believe is that the human body is so resilient, and these little babies are are so resilient. I have to think that we can only do the best with the knowledge that we have at the time and so thinking, you know, holding onto that guilt there, it just isn't, there's nothing that we can do about it.
Speaker 1:And in the, in the coaching that you do like, in the coaching I do and all of us, we work on shame and guilt and self-compassion, and so is that what you do with your clients. How do you work with them around pregnancy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean such a great question. I just really work to definitely instill that, that self-compassion. Many women I mean just as women in general, I think we're culturally programmed to feel that we're never really adequate, that there's always something missing, that we should look a certain way and feel a certain way and act a certain way, and we're supposed to have it all together all the time, and that's just not the reality of any human being. And so really trying to develop.
Speaker 2:One of the biggest changes in my life that came from this journey to, to freedom from alcohol, was finding that compassion for myself, getting rid of, you know, stopping the, the um, um perfectionism, catching it and and saying you know what? There is no person in the world that is perfect. There is no artificial, you know, guideline that says I have to be a certain way or do a certain thing. I just need to remember to do the best that I can at that time, every single day, and that's always changing. Learning to develop that self-compassion for yourself is just such a life-changing aspect that really impacts so many different areas of our life, and especially going into motherhood.
Speaker 2:Motherhood is so hard. Many different areas of our life, and especially going into motherhood. Motherhood is so hard. It's one of the most difficult and rewarding experiences of our entire lives and it's such a beautiful time to continue to learn and grow and and find out more about ourselves. I've learned more about myself becoming a mom than I did in the 30 years prior, because you you can see everything that you do mirrored in this. You know little carbon copy of yourself. My daughter looks so much like me and has so many similarities to me that it's it's mind boggling. So when she, you know, I start to see certain personality traits come out in her, I'm like, oh my goodness. And it just gives you a chance to pause and reflect and ask yourself is this something that I want to continue doing? And I think it's such a powerful opportunity to grow and learn and you know we're all just trying to do the best that we can.
Speaker 1:Absolutely grow and learn, and you know we're all just trying to do the best that we can. Absolutely Well, I'm so glad that you're available for people who need someone to talk to about this. You know it's a great thing you're offering. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about? Otherwise, I'll ask where the listeners can find you the listeners can find you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think we've covered so much great information here and I just want people to know that they're not alone and, for the ones, that it's easy and you know, I don't really believe deep down that it is all that easy for anyone really we we just take it on and we say we're going to do this. And many women, um, are very, you know, capable of making that change and then not thinking about it, and but even in that instance, I find that many women that I talk to, once they give birth, you know how many women end up celebrating their birth with a bottle of wine and jump right back into it. And I think one of the beautiful things about the work that I do get, that I get to do with these amazing women who just want something different, and many of them are changing.
Speaker 2:You know generational alcoholism and that is definitely my story is that they grew up with alcohol in their lives. They always believed that it was something that it was necessary and it wasn't so bad. But then when you start to have children, your world changes and you're in this new kind of era of motherhood and you're questioning everything, and so I think you know. I just want to say that it's such a great opportunity during pregnancy because you're already on this amazing extended break to be able to really start to investigate and get curious and question, because our, our motherhood journey is such an important piece of our lives Like it's not just important to our children, it's our motherhood too and so I just think it's such a beautiful time to be able to continue to grow and learn about ourselves and then become the present you know compassionate parents that everybody strives to be, and changing your relationship with alcohol really opens up so many opportunities to really just be so much more in tune with your children and present, and that it's never too late.
Speaker 2:You know the parenting journey doesn't just stop once they turn a certain age, like it's a lifelong journey and I just think it's such a beautiful opportunity to be able to be close to our children. And if anybody you know wants to look at my work or just find me online, my company is Rooted Ruby Wellness on Facebook and it's rootedrubycom is the website and I'm mostly on Instagram at Rooted Ruby Wellness and I'm mostly on Instagram at Rooted Ruby Wellness. And, yeah, I would just love to hear people's stories and their own experiences and just opening up the conversation for Mormons to be able to continue to look at whether or not this is really necessary or important to keep in their lives, and how life be better if it wasn't a part of it.
Speaker 1:So cool. Thank you so much. I will also put that information in the show notes. Thank you for being here today, Danielle. Great to talk to you.
