The Not Drinking Alcohol Today Podcast

Hello Sunday Morning With CEO, Dr Nicole lee

• Isabella Ferguson and Meg Webb • Season 2 • Episode 91

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Hello Sunday Morning's (HSM) CEO, Dr Nicole Lee, joins Not Drinking Today to talk about the remarkable work HSM does to support individuals to drink less. HSM's mission is to aim to change the world's relationship with alcohol one Sunday at a time! This is exactly what HSM does via its incredible Daybreak App, research, weekly blogs and social media and online platform engagements. Dr Lee talks about her own relationship with alcohol, her unwavering commitment to social justice, and the innovative online support systems Hello Sunday Morning offers to help individuals reduce or quit alcohol consumption. Dr. Lee also discusses HSM's mission to dismantle the stigma surrounding alcohol and drug use. This is a great episode to jump into to learn how to tap into an Australian organisation with global reach doing innovative work to support all of us looking to drink less.

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MEG

Megan Webb: https://glassfulfilled.com.au
Instagram: @glassfulfilled
Unwined Bookclub: https://www.alcoholfreedom.com.au/unwinedbookclub
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BELLA

Web: https://isabellaferguson.com.au
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Speaker 1:

A huge welcome to the CEO of Hello Sunday Morning, Dr Nicole Lee. A huge welcome to the Not Drinking Today podcast.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks so much for having me on Isabella.

Speaker 1:

You're absolutely welcome, Meg and I are huge, huge fans of Hello Sunday Morning. Now I've got lots of questions to ask about Hello Sunday Morning, how it operates, what you're doing, a bit about the history. But before we do that, would you mind, I guess, telling us a little bit about your background, your relationship with alcohol and how you came to be the CEO?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a very good question and some of it is by accident. My background's in psychology, so I was a psychologist and then I became an academic. So I did a lot of research. I've worked in the alcohol and other drug field and the mental health area my whole career. So obviously Alexander Morni is very aligned with my experience and expertise. But I have a real interest in that area and it's a kind of surprise to some people. I didn't kind of grow up with, you know, alcoholic parents or anything like that. I just had a real interest in I guess it was a it's a bit of a social justice driver. I, you know. When I first encountered this area I realized how much stigma there is around people trying to quit or cut back on the alcohol and how much stigma there is around illicit drugs as well, and it just didn't seem fair to me.

Speaker 2:

So that's how I kind of got interested in really wanting to do something that had a big impact on that kind of stigma in, you know, for people who use alcohol and drugs, but also, for, you know, there's quite an overlap with mental health as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, thank you. That's a great intro and I really appreciate the comments that you made there about reducing the stigma, because, gosh, it's a hurdle to people reaching out for recovery and perpetuates that shame-blame cycle. I think we're getting there with a few breakthroughs and because I know listeners will be wanting to know this question, to the extent that it's relevant, what is your relationship with alcohol? Do you drink?

Speaker 2:

Yeah well, this also surprises some people. I think people assume that, being the head of an alcohol change organisation, that I would be a teetotaller. But I do drink. It's a question I get asked all the time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I bet, I bet, you do.

Speaker 2:

Look, I guess in my mind, as I said, I don't come from like a heavy drinking family or anything. Yeah, um, I, you know I grew up with a kind of everything in moderation um point of view about alcohol. I'm a an occasion drinker. I guess I don't just have a glass of wine every day with a meal. If I go out with friends or I'm doing something special, then I'll have a have, have a drink or two, and I typically don't do that more than a couple of times a month really, and normally I'd only have one or two drinks. So I would you know most people would say I was a fairly light drinker and I think certainly my, my family would have had a big influence on on that.

Speaker 2:

I haven't had any personal experience of growing up um, with lots of alcohol or drugs around um, we didn't. I don't remember having like wine with dinner, um, or my parents having wine with dinner. Yeah, I was young either. So I was never, you know. I think you know in the early stages of uni I was surrounded by people who drank a lot and at that time, you know, like most young people, that was my peak kind of time of drinking yes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, drank too much on many occasions. But you know that's that kind of typical blip that everybody goes through. That's right, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Your answer makes absolute sense to me and I knew that that was the answer as well because I had seen a wonderful post you did on LinkedIn describing that. And it makes sense because you sound exactly like the way my sister drinks, like my husband drinks and many people out there, and in fact it's refreshing to hear that that's how a moderate and many people out there and in fact it's refreshing to hear that that's how a moderate, sensible drinker thinks and behaves around alcohol. Certainly I can relate to that university peak. It's just that I kept on going and it kept on growing and for all of our listeners out there it would be unfathomable to think of even enjoying one or two, because it really looks like well, double that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, it's certainly not for everyone, you know. I think there's sometimes for some people a point where they're drinking so much for such a long period of time they kind of pass a point of no return and they can't go back to drinking or they would find it very difficult. Some people do. Some people do go back to moderate drinking. They're quite heavy drinkers. But on the whole, if you've kind of crossed that threshold, it's really hard to moderate your drinking again and it's just safer and and easier and better just not to drink. I mean, alcohol is not an essential, yeah thing for us to be consuming. You don't really need it, so why risk it?

Speaker 1:

absolutely well said. I sort of call that the the twodoor policy there's the drinking or the no third door. Now I had a little look at Hello Sunday Morning just as a bit of a refresher, and I loved the mission. We aim to change the world's relationship with alcohol one Sunday at a time, and I believe Hello Sunday Morning was one of the originals out there when there was really an absence or a void of that online presence when it came to drinking in Australia. It was quite a beacon of light. I know that even people from all around the world were tapping into Hello Sunday Morning as leading this presence online. So look, I guess I'll hand it over to you. Tell us a little bit about Hello Sunday Morning and what it does for those that are listening and have heard the name but just want a refresher as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah well, our mission is to change the world's relationship with alcohol and um, we, we kind of aim um to provide people um at any stage of drinking, um at any level of drinking. We want to, we want to provide tools so that they can make whatever changes they want to make up to their drinking. And we, we did come from really interesting beginnings. We started.

Speaker 2:

It's our 15th birthday next year, oh, wow yeah, we've been going for quite a while now. Um, so we started in? Um, yeah, officially in 2010, but it was off the back of our founder, chris rain, who, in 2009, decided to take a year off alcohol as a bit of an experiment. Before that, he was a really heavy drinker. He was running a nightclub. He was like doing all the young people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

He was only 23 at the time, so he was way ahead of his time and he blogged about his experiences at a time when blogs weren't really a thing no. Yeah, and then the organisation just kind of evolved from that. He gathered this kind of group of people that just got bigger and bigger, who also wanted to take a year off or some period of time off, and it grew into what is now Australia's well, actually probably the world's biggest alcohol-focused digital health service.

Speaker 1:

Is that?

Speaker 2:

right, yeah, and we do have people from all over the world who are part of the Daybreak community, which is our main program. So we've got a big digital online community. About 140,000 people have registered for it and it offers free, 24-7, anonymous peer support and so you can hop on there. I kind of think of it a bit like Facebook, yeah, but it's yeah. You can like, post on there how you're feeling and how you're going with your change um journey and lots of people will give you encouragement and likes and stuff like that um. And then we've got a couple some other um kind of products that help support that. We've got a drink, a drink tracker so you can track your drinks, and we've got a kind of self-assessment tool where you can have a look at your drinking and see whether you need to make changes to it.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing and I'll put for everyone who's keen to learn some more all of this in the show notes. So this Daybreak community I'm really interested in because I think that's what everyone's looking for when they're wanting to drink less, is the sense of not being alone, that there's somebody else out there that's experiencing what they're feeling, and a bit of rapport and motivation, a bit of a cheer squad behind them. And God as a counsellor. That's not something I can necessarily provide and I'm always sort of hunting around to try and find it and send links and send people somewhere. So I wasn't aware of this. I get your emails hello, Sunday morning emails but is there something more? So just tell me a little bit more, if you don't mind, about this Daybreak community, because I think it's a missing piece for many people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's such a great community. There'd be anywhere between 4,000 to 6,000 people in the community active any one month, and so there's 24-7 7. There's someone to chat to. It's all app based, so it's a smartphone app and you can just download it and register and start interacting. We have lots of people who just kind of like Facebook, I guess just watch for a little while and, yes, right in. We've got people who kind of come in, get what they need and go out again. We've got people who have been with us for years and years and years and provide support to other people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, before I, before I became CEO of Hello Sunday Morning, I was on the board and I kind of preparing for that role. I kind of had a little bit of a look at it and I hadn't. You know, I don't particularly use it, but when I became CEO, I hopped back on and I was reminded at how affirming it is to have people just say you're doing a great job. Yeah, here's some tips if you need it. And and people who are going through the same journey as you like. It's not a therapist or a psychologist or someone kind of an expert, it's just people who have had that experience before and have got something to share with you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I just got goosebumps. It's true, You're not looking for advice in that paid sense. You're looking almost for non-judgmental mentoring guidance isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, and there's this really interesting study, not in alcohol and not in the alcohol space particularly, but just looking at the factors that support longevity and living longer, and one of them is giving up alcohol, but the top one is connection with like-minded people, and it's really lovely. The Daybreak app provides both of those things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I love that you've connected the two as well longevity and connection. You know loneliness and there's that beautiful Johan Hari TEDx talk which was all about the opposite of addiction is quality connection. So you're creating a life you want to be present for. You're not numbing out, I guess, what are the most concerning statistics around alcohol in Australia that you would like to see change?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think, on the positive side, one of the good news stories in Australia is that alcohol consumption is dropping overall, and that's especially driven by young people in their early 20s, which is fantastic. So some of them are not drinking at all. My son's one of them. He's nearly 20. He's never had a drink in his life and he has no intention.

Speaker 1:

Like parenting success. Sorry, I talked over you then. What did you say then?

Speaker 2:

And no intention. He has no intention of like I say. I say to him do you want to? You know, do you want me to make you a drink? He says no thanks, not interested at all.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, why do you think he's made that decision?

Speaker 2:

well, I mean, I guess I have been deliberately instilling yeah in him um some values around alcohol and they haven't been abstinent values, but that's what he's taken on board and he obviously sees that as an unnecessary activity for him. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's really fascinating. And he's not alone. Like. There's a lot of young people are now either delaying drinking, so they're starting to drink much later and they drink less than previous generations, um, and so that's really great because we in the future, like when they're middle-aged, we should see a decline in problems related to long-term alcohol use, like liver disease and cancer and, um, all of those things, as well as kind of immediate things like accidents and injuries.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that happen because usually because young people like drink too much, yeah, yeah, but on the flip side of that, the concerning statistic is that we're still really struggling to shift risky drinking. Yeah, so people who consume the people who do consume alcohol still are often consuming in quite harmful ways that put them at risk of either immediate problems or long-term problems. Later we know that the um, I think the statistic is that the top 5% of drinkers drink nearly 40% of all the alcohol consumed in Australia.

Speaker 1:

Oh, yeah Gosh, do we have an age group there for that stat or gender? You may not Just curious.

Speaker 2:

It tends to be men that drink more than women, but in the last decade or so women have been doing their best to catch up and the group that is at highest risk there's kind of two groups is still young people are still the biggest drinkers, even though their consumption is down, and then people in middle age as well. And that's probably a kind of hangover from those. People were teenagers in the 80s, where there was a very big drinking culture, and they've continued that drinking right through to middle age.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I would say yeah, the Gen Xers were. The culture was just saturated with the marketing of alcohol and women were starting to be targeted you know, there was the pink dollar there because we were earning and wanting to be treated as we ought to equals and they thought, oh well, let's line them up for more alcohol in their lives.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, women definitely. They're earning more money, you know, with that type of equality, and they're more independent. They're getting married later, partnering later, having babies later, and so, yeah, for sure, that's yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, I certainly tick the box for that stat Well and truly, and I'd say most of my clients would, and probably 80%, dare I say, of the listeners that are listening. So I guess, back to that question what would you like to see change and how can we go about it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's so many things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I know it's a hard open-ended question there yeah, so many things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know it's a hard, open-ended question there. Look, I think that, as you just alluded to um, there's, you know, really aggressive marketing of alcohol. That is um a little unhindered at the moment. There's not a lot of rules. It's really easy to get around the rules. You know there's meant to be no advertising in sport, for example, but if you watch sport on TV, they, you know, all the footy teams are sponsored by alcohol.

Speaker 2:

There's alcohol ads everywhere, there's loopholes all over the place and we know that advertising, availability and price, they're the three things that impact on population level of use. So if we can impact those things, we can reduce the overall amount that people are using um. So that's one. I think that's one really important thing, yeah, but the other thing is alcohol is still the number one drug that people present to for treatment. Um, despite all of the harms that are associated with illicit drugs, it's still the most common, yeah, primary drug of concern and often at the moment, um the service system is so broken and so underfunded that when people want to seek help, there's not a lot available for them.

Speaker 2:

So I think that's at the other end. We need to do a lot of prevention stuff at one end, and we also need to provide the right help at the right time. Yeah, people need it. So I think that's why daybreak and Holy Sunday morning is so popular, because people can really access it whenever they need to.

Speaker 1:

That's right, and I guess there needs to be a variety of options that suit people depending on their income. Availability of time, spectrum of drinking problems. Yeah, it's not a one-size-fits-all treatment program at all. Is there, Is it yeah?

Speaker 2:

Which is really difficult. We need to provide a whole range of things that people can access so that they get the help they need to make the changes they want.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I really loved the comments that you said just about the change in the younger generation and the way that I guess it's just more viable for them to be able to say no, and confidently so, when they're out and about. One of my most passionate subjects that I have is that cultural shift, particularly when it comes to the workplace, and a big driver for change there is that the younger generation, their employees. They want to be able to say no or have a break or be alcohol-free at networking events in the workplace without that pressure to do so. There's a lot that the Gen Xers and to some extent the Baby Boomers can do in the workplace as well to promote that inclusive, safe culture. Is that a space that Hello Sunday Morning reaches out to at all into Australian workplaces?

Speaker 2:

A little bit. We've certainly got know corporate sponsors and we work with them to um, you know, to to to reduce the impact of alcohol at work. Um, before I became really accidentally ceo of hello center, move from the board to the to the ceo position as a temporary thing while we recruited and then ended up staying. But my day job before that was I had a consultancy working also in the drug and alcohol field. We do a lot of work. It's called 360 Edge. We do a lot of work with workplaces, designing policy and helping them implement it, and we do see so many more organisations and businesses really thinking about health and safety and the role of alcohol particularly, but also illicit drugs, in that space and really doing something sensible about it, which is really great Because it really does. You know, we've got a lot of people in Australia now who are from cultural and religious backgrounds where alcohol is frowned upon, and having a workplace that isn't centred around alcohol at every event means it can be much more inclusive for everyone as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I agree with that. What are you most proud about when it comes to work that Hello Sunday Morning is doing?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so many things. I think we've helped so many people, which is the first thing.

Speaker 1:

Do you have any stats?

Speaker 2:

there. Well, only that we've had about 140,000 people through, we've got like 70,000 people connected on our socials, and so we reach a lot of people.

Speaker 1:

Just incredible yeah.

Speaker 2:

But I really love when I go somewhere and you know, someone asks me what I do and I say I'm CEO of Hello Sunday Morning and they go oh yeah, I've heard of that. Oh yeah, I've downloaded that app and everywhere I go, at least one or two people will say that, which is really lovely because we're a fairly small organisation but we have a big reach, which is great, and I think it's, you know, coming from a psychology background where I did the usual, you know, weekly sessions with people to help them, um, quit their drinking. I really love the idea of this really accessible um, 24-7 um service that people can help themselves. And you know, when I talk to friends and clients and people who have been through that process of change, they often say the number one thing is having a peer or someone who knows what I'm going through to talk to.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, it's invaluable. The amount of conversations, particularly women that I have that are home alone drinking, that are wouldn't dare communicate what they're doing to anybody and just feel so isolated, is well, it's large, it's large. So if there's that ability to reach out onto your Daybreak program and be part of that community, that's just one step towards making some changes, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

And Daybreak. I love the idea that it's also anonymous, so I know that we know that I was actually.

Speaker 1:

I was thinking about. I was thinking that hidden drinking link, is it Okay?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I know that we've had, you know, politicians and celebrities on there. No one knows who they are, and so it's a place, and you know, particularly for women. You know, 70% of our Daybreak members are women. Because so much stigma on women when they're heavy drinking.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you know they can come onto this app no one knows who they are and they can be themselves and they can connect and talk to people. It's just a really great idea and it's it can help so many people. And I think that anonymity is really important, because if you're a politician or a celebrity, you've got a drinking problem. Everyone's looking at you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, go, you know, walk into a psychologist, someone will know that you're, that's right, and even if you're not, you never feel comfortable in those first endeavors to reach out to try and find your community and support putting your name forward ever. Yeah, and one further question just on that Are there meetups? Are there face-to-face meetups ever arranged in those forums for people that might want to? Are there face-to-face meetups ever arranged in those forums for people that might want to.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's a bit of a thorny issue and a bit of a dilemma for us. We have talked about that a lot and it contravenes our current guidelines for the community. And we've made it like that because if people start meeting up and they know who they are into the app, they're no longer anonymous, and so there's this kind of balance. And then, on balance, we've just decided that the anonymity is more important um than the meetup. I'm sure there are people that kind of meet up, you know, without us knowing, and that's fine, but our number one thing is really to maintain that anonymity in the community.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I get it. It encourages people there to feel safe and nurtured and, yeah, and that's the primary goal. Just look before I ask what's on Hello Sunday Morning's horizon? Is there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners? You know we're all a bunch of people on different drinking spectrums, all wanting to well, all recognising that alcohol holds us back, knowing we drink a bit too much or a lot. Yeah, anything you'd like to say?

Speaker 2:

knowing we drink a bit too much or a lot, uh yeah, anything you'd like to say. Well, I mean, I think that, um, people are much more aware of, like health and mental health problems linked to drinking now, which is such a great thing and we can talk about it a lot more, and people feel lots more free to say I'm not drinking today, and that's fine. But for some people there's still that kind of stigma about trying to give up or not drinking, which is fascinating.

Speaker 2:

I wrote a post a little while ago about my partner who just gave up alcohol for a month earlier in the year and you know, one of his friends said oh, what happened to you used to be fun yeah and his other friend said I will see you in March, yeah, and you just get that kind of they're just joking around, but it's, you know, when you're trying to do something that's quite difficult, which is, you know, changing a habit that you've had for many years, it's unhelpful to have that.

Speaker 1:

Oh, beautifully said, and in fact I'd say most people who'd be listening to this podcast would have that as their number one concern. And somebody mentioned to me the other day, well, two comments that fly off the back of that would be somebody in the workplace who was choosing, you know, we'd workshopped her doing this networking function for weeks, so nervous about what everyone would say, and wasn't drinking and this comment wasn't directed to her, but she overheard somebody else. Say God, anybody who doesn't drink must have a problem. And so, just to overhear that, or another one, you know, just not drinking at, I was saying they're having a month off, much like your husband, and that she was going to, you know, sign up for some sort of group to get some support and really got the whole sort of well, you must have a problem. It sounds like AA to me. You know, it would be lovely for Australia's culture to shift so that not drinking wasn't associated with a problem. It was associated with longevity, it was associated with living your best, largest life.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and because all of that is really true, like it's a I mean, I don't want to be too wowsery about it, but it, yeah, you know it's poison that you're putting into your body and you're taking risks every time you have a drink, yeah, and it does reduce your health and your well-being, and so you don't want to do it too often. It's a kind of special occasion thing. If you do it, yeah, and if you can, um, you know, the less you drink, the longer you live, the healthier you'll be, the better you sleep. There's a whole lot of benefits to it, for sure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah uh, dr lee, what is on the horizon for hello sunday morning well, we are at the moment, um, just thinking about how we can build out our kind of program line and so that we're able to provide services right across the spectrum for a whole load of different people. First thing that we've got coming up in should be released in January, hopefully all going well. Yeah, it's a new program called hello change and it's a six session kind of behavior change program that you can work through yourself. So it's a bit like seeing a psychologist, but you don't need to go see a psychologist.

Speaker 2:

You can do it on your own. Yeah, and we really want to reach kind of so many more people so that anyone who wants to change um just thinks of hello sunday morning first and comes to us. So, yeah, we're. We're spending a lot of time thinking about um, promotion and products and marketing, which is super fun.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, I had no doubt that people will flock to that because of the reputation of Hello Sunday Morning and the quality that trust that people have. So, oh, that sounds fabulous. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to talk to Not Drinking today. We, as I said, are massive fans of Hello Sunday Morning and you know it's just been a great honour to have you on.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, thanks, isabella. Thanks so much for your support of HSM as well.

Speaker 1:

You're welcome.

People on this episode

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Isabella Ferguson

Host
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Meg Webb

Host